The MPLS WG Archive

Cell Relay Retreat>MPLS WG Archive>month:2003-Jul> msg00076



[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]  
  [Date Index][Thread Index][Author Index][Subject Index]

'A' bit problem statement

  • From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com
  • Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:50:10 +0100

Title: 'A' bit problem statement
Hi Dave....I see you are still battling away against the real the underlying problems.....for which you have my admiration, but I could only agree to such a position on the basis that it is recognised that we providing a temporary fix to a fundamentally broken architectural problem.....ultimately we have to get rid of the stuff that is broken and then we don't need the fixes.
 
Please see some further remarks below.  regards, Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: David Allan [mailto:dallan@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: 15 July 2003 10:29
To: 'mpls@UU.NET'
Subject: 'A' bit problem statement

During today's MPLS session it was clear that more discussion/clarification was required on the problem space addressed by the I-D.

There is two aspects to the problem discussed in the draft.

1) Mixing e2e path testing with adjacency fault detection has coorindation problems when failures occur. If I have an LSP hierarchy that I am pinging at some low level, and a failure occurs, some number of the pings will be affected, and a response/alarm management will be hard to synchronize as ping sources are not local to the fault (and the fault may also be detected locally, e.g. link failure). IMHO this is an artifact of the delta between using ping to reactively to check routing policy vs. using ping proactively to detect data plane failures. 

NH=> The simple short-term fix to the problems mp2p creates I believe is as follows:
-    mp2p merging in any co pkt-sw technology forwarding means we lose sight of the source, and architrecturally this should tell us this is a deprecated topology in such a mode......BTW, IP *never* uses merging it is always muxing because it belongs to the cnls mode where each/every pkt has a SA/DA and so is fully resolvable.  So unless the *immediate* client is IP (but then there is little value-add from MPLS LDP variety here IMO) there are always p2p LSPs (in one form or another) above the mp2p LSPs......this is a forced consequence of the mp2p merging to effect demerging. 
-    so run some decent fault management continuously on the p2p LSPs (like Y.1711) and if this shows a problem then:
    * check the L1 trails.....if these show a correlated fault then done....but if these show 'clear', then
    * wheel-out more complex ad hoc tools like LSP-Ping to go hunting through the mp2p LSPs.

Note - I am actually happy to live with LSP-Ping, and the fact its virtually impossible to define any meaningful defect states (entry/exit criteria and consequent actions) or QoS behaviour for a mp2p entity, in the *short-term*....we have it and have to live with it.  But that does not mean I have to keep building on it and pretending its all fine for the future too.....long-term this (and other architectural errors like PHP) simply have to go.  So I won't accept kludge on kludge from here on it, like the latest PID fix and the further PW OAM proposals.....this last one is an elastoplast too far.  MPLS could/should have an important future which adds value to services providers......if all one does is try and replicate the IP layer (which you can't anyway as MPLS uses co pkt-sw forwarding mode) we are never going to realise the protential on MPLS.  Maybe that is what some people want?

 

2) Reserved labels define functions instead of forwarding.  

NH=> Agreed.  This is not a good solution IMO......however, what do you do when the header is functionally deficient?....also see later remark.
 
Fate sharing between functions and LSPs is useful. Currently ECMP breaks fate sharing between LSPs and LSP functions defined by reserved labels.  

NH=> Agreed.  And when one considers the ethernet VPLS stuff over this there will be a request to *turn-off* the ECMP since one cannot tolerlate uni-directional failings here....and ECMP creates a richer environment for this.  Bottom line is load-sharing is OKish within a *single* layer network (like IP) but it will lead to problems if done over >1 layer network (ie MPLS).  And of course it has, ergo the PID kludge.  Right answer of course is to introduce proper p2p TE capabilities to bypass the SPF/IGP routes in a known/consistent manner.

The answer to #1 is to try to localize detection of data plane problems, the ability to do the equivalent of the router alert label that fate shares with the LSP is one potential mechanism that could be used to increase locality in detecting data plane problems. Specific data plane flows could be inspected for consistency by intermediate LSRs as they were forwarded down the path.

The answer to #2 is to provide an alternative to reserved labels for LSP functions, the MPLS/PW PID is a candidate for doing this. The 'A' bit was one example of providing such functionality by defining a replacement for router alert. A side note is that there is a much higher liklihood of commonality of forwarding of a solution that had the label of interest as the top label vs. prepending with  the router alert label. 

NH=> Dave I agree.....however, if we can one-day recognise mp2p merging as 'bad' then maybe we could properly set the OAM indicator where it really should functionally reside....as part of the header.....say using the TTL field which would now be effectively redundant (8 bits is way overkill anyway).  In the meantime, I could live with your proposal if (i) it was recognised as a fix to a problem lying elsewhere, with the ultimate goal of removing the real problem at some stage and (ii) we simply use the PID without the other CW stuff (which I regard as largely irrelevant for a properly engineered/architecturally-valid MPLS network.....but if the Seq. No. stuff stays then it *must* have entry/exit defect states and consequent actions associated with it fully specified, it is unacceptable to leave this open-ended IMO speaking as an operator).

Comments?

cheers
Dave